No Right To Self-Determination

The twentieth century's greatest philosopher of freedom and reason, Sir Karl Popper, regarded the ‘alleged right of nations to self-determination’ as a catastrophic error. In one of his last speeches, in Prague in 1994, he said

I think that all lovers of peace and a civilized life should work to enlighten the world about the impracticability and inhumanity of that famous – or shall I say notorious? – Principle of National Self-Determination, which now has degenerated into that ultimate horror, ethnic terrorism.

We must fight against such horrors.

It does not follow from this that all secessionist (or unionist) movements are immoral. It is just that the issue of how territory should be divided up into states must never be decided on the basis of the ‘rights’ of nations (or states, or races, or religions…), whether to self-determination or anything else, nor in terms of an alleged right of individuals to be ruled by members of ‘their own’ group. Claims to sovereignty must be independently justified, and for all the usual conservative reasons, the burden of justification falls on whoever wants to change the status quo. And the only legitimate consideration is:

  • What do the claimants intend to do with the sovereignty, once they have it?

Thus, if a faction wants sovereignty because they would repeal bad laws and pass good ones, and the existing political tradition is incapable of doing that, then their claim is, prima facie, justified.

But if they want sovereignty because they don't like the colour of the people currently in the government, then they have no case. If they want sovereignty because it would give them a monopoly on the revenue from a certain canal, or certain natural resources, then again, they have no case. If they want to repeal good laws and pass bad ones, then they certainly have no case. It may sometimes be best to let them make their own mistakes – which always means, in practice, tyrannising those among them who are not party to the mistake – but that is not because they have a right to do so.

Furthermore, even an entirely justified secessionist or unionist movement is not entitled to use violence unless their reason for wanting sovereignty is that it is the only way to protect the lives or other rights of the people they represent. Violence is legitimate only in defence of human rights. Political independence is not a human right, and therefore cannot justify violence.

Yes, But...

It's not always clear to all participants and observers which side's proposed laws are good, and which side's are bad.

I'm curious. Given these standards, does The World think that the American Revolution against England was justified?

Gil

So......

Given the historical and current situation of the Kurds in Iraq The World would be in favor of a Kurdish state? (Kurds were clearly persecuted by the previous regime and the current regime has been unable to provide for their security.)

no answer

IANTW (I Am Not The World), but: By my reading of The World's post, one consequence is that it makes little sense to be in favor of a "***ish state" as a blanket position, without knowing more details. --Blixa

kurds

well, is the current regime preventing the kurds from securing themselves? (for example banning them from owning guns). If not, how would the Kurds having their own state make them more secure? What new measures would it allow them that they can't do now?

PS brilliant post.

PPS anyone notice what this means for Palestinians and Chechyans(sp)?

-- Elliot Temple
http://www.curi.us/

Re:kurds

The only reference to individual ownership of arms is in Article 17 of the Iraqi constitution:

"It shall not be permitted to possess, bear, buy, or sell arms except on licensure issued in accordance with the law." Not exactly the right to bear arms.

The Kurds having their own state make them more secure by being able to secure their borders.

Alternative theory

I do agree with the World, that in the current context a "Right To Self-Determination" is a bad thing. On the other hand, if that right were consitently applied, it would be a good thing. That is, if people understood that if any group has a combined right (the added rights of all individuals) to self-determination, that logically implies that each individual has that right as well, and understood this right has nothing to do with a right to be ruled by one's own people, it would be a good thing. For then we would have libertarian anarchy. For then if Wales were to secede from the UK, any city in Wales could in turn secede from Wales, and any street in that city could secede from the city, and any individual on the street could secede from the street. So if the rule of self-determination is consistently applied to any group or individual, there's no problem, and in fact many problems are solved, because then all governments would be truly voluntary, and therefore no longer would be governments.

Henry Sturman

Re: Alternative Theory

Henry Sturman wrote:

'That is, if people understood that if any group has a combined right (the added rights of all individuals) to self-determination, that logically implies that each individual has that right as well, and understood this right has nothing to do with a right to be ruled by one's own people, it would be a good thing.'

Well, actually it doesn't imply any such thing. One could consistently hold that nations have rights and individuals do not because nations have some mystical property or other that makes them superior to individuals. This theory is balderdash but it is certainly possible to believe it. It is also possible to believe, as the Southern secessionists did before the American Civil War, that certain types of individuals are inferior to other types and that self-determination consists in superior people being allowed to make laws allowing them to enslave, torture and rape inferior people without inteference. National self-determination would only work in the way you described if all people thought that individualism was true and they don't. Even then it would be redundant since political institutions would be judged largely on the basis of whether or not they promote individual freedom.

I'm no expert by any means on

I'm no expert by any means on the current Kurd situation but reader asserts that if a "Kurdish state" were made, they would be better able to defend their borders than currently. I don't know how it's possible for reader to know this, without specifying, among other things, *who* he proposes be put in charge of the proposed Kurdistan. (It *matters*.) If the answer is, "the guys who are basically in charge of semi-independent Kurdistan right now", then what's the point?

This is just one of the reasons why being in favor of a "***ish state" qua ***ish state is untenable. What bothers me about the "right to self-determination" is that it masks the reality in a way that sounds uniformly, deceptively nice. What most listeners (to whom this all sounds very Nice) will fail to grasp is: Saying "There should be a ***ish state" is functionally equivalent to saying "such and such group of people should be given monopoly on the use of force over all of the (much larger group of) people in such-and-such geographic region". I don't know how one can possibly endorse or reject such a claim without actually specifying who that group of people is, what sorts of checks would be placed on their behavior, etc. It literally makes no sense.

(This is why I was so pleased to see this, excellent, World post.)

Back to the Kurds, from where does the biggest threat to Kurdistan come? From Turkey? (Honestly curious.) What would be the likely response of Turkey to the creation of an independent Kurdistan - more belligerence or less? What would you predict? Has this prediction been factored into the assertion that Kurds would be better able to secure their borders if they had "their own state"?

Would Kurdistan require US military assistance in securing their borders? If so, what exactly would be so different from the current situation? What's the point here? I think one of the lessons of the World's post is that, at the very least, you ought to be sure that you're not favoring a ***ish state just for the sake of there being a ***ish state i.e. because that would be nice and swell.

For the record, I've got no particular gripe with there being a separate Kurdish state and I'm certainly open to being convinced that it is a necessity.

--blixa

intentions vs results

"And the only legitimate consideration is:

What do the claimants intend to do with the sovereignty, once they have it?"

So the probablity of them actually acheiving their intentions don't matter?

curious

I'm curious to read what Elliot Temple, or anyone else, thinks this means for Palestinians and Chechyans(I don't know how to spell it either). I know what it means if certain factions of the Palestinians, like Hamas, were to gain control of such a state. But some factions have claimed that they want a secular, democratic government. Not that that alone puts it in the "good" catagory.

my 2 cents

IMHO,

Essentially it means that arguments of the form "we must ___ because the [Palestians/Chechnians] have the Right To Their Own State" are, on the face of it, nonsensical and false.

You mention that there are factions in each place who talk about wanting a secular, democratic government. That's very nice to hear. What will it take to put such a faction in power? Keep them in power? Will they be able to stay in power? Can they be believed about what they say they want? Can they be trusted (rather, to what extent can they be trusted)? Will they become corrupt (rather, to what extent will they become corrupt)? What are the realistic outlooks for the country if all this is attempted? Will it become a failed state? terrorist haven? will factions inside launch attacks on neighbors [Israel/Russia resp.]? will the newly-made government be able to stop this effectively? Will third-party nations such as Iran Syria Jordan Pakistan whoever attempt to influence matters? in what way? with what results, broadly speaking?

Answer those questions and if the answers sound good to me (like if I come to believe that your plan can actually create a Chechnya which doesn't contain gangs which regularly kidnap and ransom Russians, or a Palestine from which guerrillas won't be regularly firing mortars into Israel), you might start to build a case which I could support that e.g. yes we ought to support the creation of a [Palestinian/Chechenian] state with the properties you just described. The devil is in the details, *all* in the details. This is why "Right to their own state!" is such a dangerous principle; it ignores details (all of them) as if they are unimportant, when they are *everything*.

-Blixa

Creamface

didn't Bill Bryson uncover facts behind the US statement of grievances ?
namely the calling "together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable" - only 3 states had had their legislative bodies moved - at most to a distance of 4 miles or so.
and most of the tax raised (the colonists were taxed at a very low level compared to the Brits) was used to defend the colonies.

Who determined that "Libertar

Who determined that "Libertarian Anarchy" was a "good" thing?? I don't want to live in an anarchic society, and most people don't. I read your personal webpage, so I know what your opinons are, and I strongly disagree with them. Who are you to tell me that I must accept your ideas? I don't think total personal freedom is necessary. I see nothing wrong with the government doing things for the benefit of society, as long as it doesn't become totally oppressive in thier means. Democracy is NOT a failure and in most democracies the minorities are protected, not oppressed. Democracy works very well, that's why it is the most popular system ever created. It isn't perfect by any means, and nothing is perfect and never will be. Also, I disagree with the idea that people have no right to self determination. If a group of white people want to live with only a group of white people, that should be thier right as long as they don't harm others or take away their rights. I completely agree that people should be able to live the way they want if the majority approve. Those not wanting to participate should be able to freely choose something else, and if they want to be part of a conglomerate society, they should be able to. I see no legitimate argument to convince me otherwise.

Incidently, I thought the purpose of this was to demolish all these pro-left wing, self-righteous intellectually pretentious arguments and conspiracy theories, not support nonsense such as this? I just lost my respect for this website.